‘Agatha All Along’ Showrunner Unpacks Episode 5: Wiccan, Agatha’s Mom and the Shorter Runtime

Note: The following contains major spoilers ahead for “Agatha All Along” Episode 5.

Well, it’s official. After months of rumors and speculating and theorizing, “Agatha All Along” confirmed in Episode 5 that Teen is indeed Wanda Maximoff’s son, Billy. Or, as he’s known in the comics, Wiccan.

In the final moments of the latest episode, now streaming on Disney+, Teen (Joe Locke) couldn’t control his anger toward Agatha (Kathryn Hahn) for killing Alice (Ali Ahn) during her trial. As Agatha shows little remorse, his hands glow blue, and Jen (Sasheer Zamata) and Lilia (Patti Lupone) suddenly grab Agatha. But, you’ll notice their eyes are also blue, as Teen is controlling them.

As he throws Agatha and the remaining witches get thrown off the road into some kind of witchy quicksand, a crown appears on his head that looks eerily similar to the crown Wanda (Elizabeth Olsen) wore when she became the Scarlet Witch. Cue Billie Eilish’s “You Should See Me in a Crown” and roll credits.

So what does this mean? Where did Agatha and the remnants of her coven go? We got into it with showrunner Jac Schaeffer in her latest episodic breakdown with TheWrap.

OK, let’s start at the end today and work our way back. The big reveal, we know who Teen is. The crown, the Billie Eilish needle drop — that is Wanda’s son.

Correct.

So talk to me about the conversations you had with Marvel about introducing this character. Was this something that you wanted to do? Was it something that they said “We’re going to bring him in?” How did this happen that Wiccan was going to come in for “Agatha All Along?”

So, I wish I was more organized with this story, it’s all kind of a blur. It started with, I had this notion of like, a goth teenager, or a group of goth teenagers. And I knew that Agatha would be trapped in the spell. And just like, the sort of craft of it, I kept imagining this goth teenager, with candles, doing some kind of, like, a rudimentary spell, and I think the original idea was like, “And then he accidentally gets Agatha out from under this spell.”

This teenager or group of teenagers has potential, or whatever. Early on, we’re like, you know, Agatha is a mentor, and we want a younger character, and we want that sort of feeling. And I’m not sure, but my memory is that I think it was [executive producer] Mary Livanos who was like “Billy.”

You said to me in one of our first interviews, you said the words “Agatha is to the first to know any secret. Agatha is always holding things back.” How long has Agatha known who Billy really is?

So, a lot of your questions today Andi, I will be saying, “Please see future episodes.” So this is one of those.

I had a feeling. My next question was going to be how does she know? Was the sigil destroyed? Is this one of these things that’s going to be in future episodes?

Yes, yes. I should just like, hold up a sign every time you ask something that will be.

It’s OK! I prepared for this, I just have to try. One thing that caught my ear: there’s a switch in Agatha when Billy is like “Killing people to advance your own agenda, no, that’s not what being a witch is for me.” And she says, “Are you sure?” That sounded like an implication, to me, that Teen killed someone. Did Teen kill someone?

That is not what that means. That is Agatha sort of — she can always see the darkness in people, and she’s always interested in it. So I think anybody who is saying to her, “I am an angel, I am on the side of good,” her question is going to be like, “Are you? Are you really?”

And so there’s not the sort of specificity necessarily. That’s Agatha poking holes in anybody who claims to be righteous.

The thing is, I don’t necessarily trust Teen now because I want to know how long has he known who he is, and what are his intentions? So I mean, very vaguely in that realm, can you say anything in terms of why he’s on the road? How much darkness to Billy is there?

That’s definitely not a question that I can answer right now. All of these questions are the right questions. And, you know, in the “WandaVision” universe, I and my team, we love complicated storytelling. And we love the how of it, you know? People can always guess the what, but the how we got here, that journey, and how you parse it out, and how you plot it linearly or non-linearly, that is the fun of these shows.

OK, question you can answer: Alice is dead. Like, dead dead, gone.

Yes. Alice is dead.

Why are you taking the innocent ones first?!

(Laughs).

Mrs. Hart was just having a good time. Alice just lifted her family curse, she had such a pure moment at the beginning of this episode, exchanging brooms with Teen. Why must we go for the innocent, or innocent-seeming ones first, Jac, why?

(Laughs). So I will say that I love Alice so much, and I love Ali Ahn so much, and Ali was so instrumental in crafting the characterization of Alice, especially in her triumphant Episode 4. The writer’s room felt very passionately about her. What I will say is that, it’s not the end of the conversation, is what I would say.

OK, I like that kind of hope! One thing I want to ask; I watch the show with a buddy, because you have to tag-team theories, and one of the things that she said to me after this episode was that it feels like “Clue,” and I agree. Paying attention to who is where, and when, and what they’re doing. Was that ever an inspiration for you?

I think “Clue” is a big one for me as a person. It was on heavy rotation on cable when I was a child, and I really loved the characters, their names, their wardrobe, how sort of, like, prescribed the world was, and that each has a weapon, and yeah.

So I just think, as a person, that that is part of — and it’s such a joyful movie, and such a hilarious movie, and they’re so clearly having such a phenomenal time. So, I guess. It wasn’t like a conversation in the writer’s room, it’s certainly not anything that we spoke about directly, but it is a big one for me.

And obviously we have the ’80s slasher vibes for this trial, the very nightmare fuel “Exorcist”-type situation. Why ’80s vibes for this particular trial?

So early on, I wanted to do Agatha’s trial earlier than people expected. I think that it’s been so wonderful to sort of see the fandom experience this show, and I knew that if an audience sort of, like, got into the flow, they — this is a smart fan base. They were going to decide amongst themselves what the order of trials would be.

I was also going to ask about this, I expected Agatha’s to be last!

I was banking on the intelligence of this viewership. The people who watched “WandaVision” and loved it are so smart and so invested, and so I really see it as my job to make sure that we stay a little bit ahead. People figure stuff out, and they’re so clever and they’re so great, but, you know, I think this viewership doesn’t actually want to get into a clear rhythm.

So you were asking why 80’s. There’s sort of larger things that I can’t totally speak to about reasons, but I can say that there’s a bit in each trial of — well, it’s not a bit. It is the sort of fundamental principle of, like, our worst nightmares.

And so when we were designing this trial for Agatha, the idea was like, “What’s a nightmare scenario for her?” And we were like “A slumber party.” (Laughs). Just seemed like the most horrendous thing. And then that slumber party, to me, is like intrinsically linked with that era. And then, you know, we were doing horror, so then that became “Friday the 13th,” “Sleepaway Camp,” and then “Poltergeist” and “Exorcist” and those things sort of fell into place.

And there’s also kind of a ramshackle vibe to this cabin because she has such a long history. And so the production design of the space is really fun because it’s a it’s a real mixed bag. Like at first glance, it looks ’80s, but if you sort of poke around, there’s much more there.

It was so fun. You mentioned designing this trial for Agatha. I’ll be honest, my theory has been — and I guess I’m going to be wrong on this one — I could make a case that that was Teen’s trial, or even that it was Rio’s trial. But you’re saying that this was, for certain, Agatha’s trial.

Yes. Like anything in the show, I believe that there are beautiful interpretations of things. But this is the spirit witch’s trial, and that is who Agatha is.

I was also going to ask what kind of witch Agatha is. Because you listen to the ballad, it’s “Gather sisters, fire, water, earth and air.” And it seems like the four of them in the coven are all of the elements. So Agatha is not an elemental witch, she’s a spirit witch. Can you go into detail on this?

Sure! I mean, I’m going to do it lightly, because, again, I encourage everybody to bring their interpretation. But, you know, very, very lightly, we liked the idea of an additional element, that Agatha would be something sort of separate and kind of a surprise, in that the audience is trying to sort of parse who is what, and what are the skill sets, and it’s a lot of world building. It’s a lot to digest. And we didn’t want to be “The Last Airbender,” you know?

There’s so much that we’re trying to download, that we didn’t want it to feel like homework. But our notion was like, she is just kind of the leader of the Coven, and that she would occupy this piece of of witchiness.

It kills me that I just spent a day and a half like, “No, it was Teen’s trial because this and this and this, and it was Rio’s trial because this and this and this.” I had such theories!

(Laughs). I love the theories. I’m a little unsure if it’s the right move for me to, like, confirm, but I’ve been not confirming things for so long. And we still have a lot left to go and a lot in store, but yes, this is the design of of the episode.

My question is though, did they actually pass this trial? Because a whole lot of those rules were broken, and Agatha didn’t actually get her magic back. We see it at the very end; she kills Alice, and then it’s not the right color magic for her, and then it fizzles out. So, my understanding of the trials is, once they clear them, they get their powers back-ish, or some of their power back, and they move on. So did they pass this trial?

Yes, they did pass this trial. The power piece of it is a larger conversation, but the sort of mechanics of the trial, what we were trying to do — and again, like always, I love everyone’s interpretations. And I do believe, you know, both with “WandaVision” and this show, we put so much love and intention into it, but once it’s once it leaves us, it belongs to everyone else and their interpretations.

But our intention was that, in every trial there is a stated goal, a stated thing that they are supposed to accomplish. And in this case, the stated goal is punish Agatha. And what happens is she’s put in a situation where she kills one of her own coven members and then has to look in the faces of the rest of her coven. And that’s when the door opens, because she is punished.

And also, we have confirmed that Nicholas Scratch is dead and gone. That’s another punishment for her.

Yes, it’s a cascade of truly painful moments for Agatha.

And Kathryn Hahn played it so, so beautifully. But hey, where was Rio at the end of that trial? Because they all walk out the door and suddenly she’s nowhere to be seen. So where is she at right now?

Please see future episodes. (Laughs).

Well, as we touch on Rio, I am really interested in what has changed between them. Because we started Episode 1, and she’s like, “I want to see you, hang, burn, drown. Salem Seven are coming for you.” And then in this episode, Agatha is “sweetheart,” and it’s “No, no, her mom can’t have her.” It’s very protective girlfriend mode after the reveal that they’re exes. So talk to me about this shift in the dynamic. What has changed for Rio and for Agatha?

I love what you’re pulling out of it, that is all part of the design. They’re exes, and so it’s that thing of, like, you haven’t seen an ex in a really long time, there is a lot of anger, there’s a lot of resentment, and a lot of heat in a negative way that comes out at the top. But if you are then put in a situation where there is, like, time in, and exposure to, and feelings are still there, and there’s also the muscle memory of that love, then you slip in to those behaviors.

And yeah, it was important to us to sort of see these moments both little and small, like Agatha looking at Rio during the broom flight. That actually, in the script, was Rio looking at Agatha. But we took out Rio’s look to Kathryn, because it felt more powerful to just really be focused on Agatha’s clear attraction, and then also her conflicting feelings that are on her face that she — because of the sort of ecstasy of all of these witches, like, you know, returning to their witchiness and being in flight and being connected and harmonizing, and there’s like euphoria there, and that sort of swirl making Agatha look to her former love. That felt really right.

And then yes, in the trial, it was on the page, and felt really important, to see Rio stand up for Agatha. And also to remind the viewer that Agatha comes from abuse, you know, that there are reasons why people behave the way they do, and it’s usually, you know, there’s source trauma.

So to bring Agatha’s mother back, who, by the way, Kate Forbes, who was in “WandaVision” and reprising her role here, who’s a tremendous performer and so wonderful to work with. She had so much trouble with that line “You were born evil.”

It was so dark. It was brutal.

It was so dark. And Kate was like, “Really? I really am going to say this?” And to her credit, she said it and meant it, because she’s an excellent performer. But yeah, that was really important. Like, we really were like “This is the fundamentals of Agatha Harkness,” is, this the narrative that she has been fed.

That her natural curiosity, her natural gifts, her ability to be performative, all of that, her mother and her community decided was evil, as opposed to mentoring her, as opposed to helping her, as opposed to communicating with her. And no one has sympathy for that more than Rio. Rio knows the story and knows this pain, and speaks up for her love.

It’s like she was there. We don’t know how far back their history goes at this point, but it seems like she certainly has a first-hand knowledge of this abuse that Agatha has suffered.

I can’t speak to those specifics, I can just say, when you’re in a relationship with someone, and they know your true heart, they know your true pain.

I want to talk about another look that passed between Agatha and Rio, once Alice is dead. We see her body, and then we see Agatha kind of go up the ladder in shame. There’s a look that happens between her and Rio in that moment. I’m interested in what the intent behind that was, if there was an intent, or was that just a choice by the actresses?

There is an intent, and we’ll have to chat about it later, Andi! (Laughs)

I can’t wait. Can we talk about runtimes? This was the shortest episode so far, and I would like to know why!

I think the page count on this episode was a little light, I think because there’s so much action. But I think it got a little lighter in post.

I was thinking about the conversation that we’re having today, and looking forward to a larger conversation about cuts and trims that have to do with exposition. And so I, again, sadly, can’t speak specifically, but this is one where, for pacing and for emotion, we lifted things that maybe illuminate stuff really, really brightly across the whole episode. So small lifts, but enough that it meant that the episode was just a little bit shorter.

And you know, hearing fan reactions and people talking, sometimes I’m like, “Oh, we cut that one line, and that would have answered what you’re talking about right now.” But it’s sort of like, we got to get to the finish line and then discuss, because, especially in post, we’re looking at the fullness of the story.

But anyway, that’s sort of a longer answer to that. It’s a really propulsive episode, and so that’s why it’s a little bit shorter, and we really wanted to feel that paciness.

You mentioned the broom flight earlier, and I do want to touch on a moment just before that. Making the brooms is so cool. But the conversation, the way that Lilia just goes off on broom culture for witches, I have to assume that comes from research, and that comes from talking to people. Talk to me about inserting that portion of it.

You know, that actually wasn’t about — Lilia’s attitude about brooms and sort of the commercialization of witchiness, that was not from the witch that we spoke to or our research. It was actually more my feeling. In endeavoring to make this show, I had a little bit of, like, “Ehh the silliness of witches” and like “Blehh, we want to make it different.” And then it just felt really fun to give one of the witches that POV, of like, “We are so much more than this.”

And then it really blossomed from there. Because I think it’s a common feeling to — I mean, it’s a feeling that I have of like, “Don’t stereotype me for the things that I am. However, if I behave in a way that falls in line with that stereotype, that’s my prerogative, and I can do that.” So we wanted to do this thing of “That’s not me, but also it is me. Witches aren’t this — oh OK, yes, we’re witches, and this is it.”

And it really suited Patti. Patti is so good at the outrage, and then also being kind of kooky and like, kind of turning in the reverse. I also loved the dynamic of like, Teen is so sincere in his love of everything witchy. So he sort of challenges these women whose opinion of themselves and of their culture has actually curdled. It’s his sort of fresh eyes, and his sort of eager nature that make them reconsider.

Well, before we go, I want to touch on that eager nature just a little bit. Because the thing that I’ve noticed is, they’re getting mean. At the end of this episode, Teen’s angry and turns on Agatha. Even Jen in the house is so ready to leave her behind. It feels like the road is corrupting them, like the Darkhold corrupts anyone who use it. Is that something that you were going for?

It’s more about a coven itself, and the idea of blessings and burdens alike, and that witches in a coven are ride or die, but also, given certain circumstances, will also stab each other in the back. That was, from the beginning, something we were interested in, because witches are coded as villains, right? Like treacherous, self serving, villainous, evil, violent, duplicitous, right? That’s the thing.

So it was important to us we weren’t doing “It’s a girls weekend! And it’s all about bonding and loving each other!” We very much wanted the bonding. I mean, that campfire idea, I wish I could remember which of my brilliant writers came up with the campfire idea, but it was very early, and I was like, “100% However we do it, we’re getting these witches around a campfire.” And I’m an enormous fan of ‘Jaws,’ so I’m like, “We’re doing a scar comparison. We need that vibe.”

But, we can’t forget that this is a show about a villain, and this is a show about witches, and I’m really interested in that. I mean, there’s not a lot of backstabbing in my female friendships, and the women that I consider to be my sisters, but they are complex relationships. I feel like it’s not the sort of “We’re in competition for each other, for men.” Oh my God, snooze. I have zero time for that type of narrative. But I am interested in a group of powerful, self-motivated women coming into conflict with each other.

Note: this interview has been lightly edited for length and clarity.

“Agatha All Along” is now streaming on Disney+, with new episodes dropping on Wednesdays at 6 p.m. PT.

TheWrap will have a new deep dive with Schaeffer for each episode the following Monday. You can check out our breakdown of the first four episodes here.

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‘Agatha All Along’ Showrunner Unpacks Episode 5: Wiccan, Agatha’s Mom and the Shorter Runtime

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